Thursday, August 18, 2005

Open String for Women on the Verge... Folks who Want to Say Whatever they Like...

Cyberpolics:

Please leave this open till someone posts something. I'm walking the talk here.

For the drama to which this refers, check out these posts/strings on I/P on Barbara's Women on the Verge of Thinking, in reverse chronological order (you might want to read these in chronological order; up to you):

>Thursday, August 18, 2005: What does it Mean to Speak Freely?
>Wednesday, August 17, 2005: Israel and the Disengagement: Peace v. Security
>Monday, August 15, 2005: Bush and the Disengagement Plan in Israel
>Sunday, August 14, 2005: If I forget thee, Jerusalem....

Demo -- your head will likely explode if you read this stuff, so consider yourself warned. LOL.

[Later edit:] Barbara considered this an invitation to flame, rather than the context for what many cyberpolers are totally unaware of, and also a way for Barbara and her crew to come on over and post whatever they like on cyberpols. I don't see anywhere above where I suggested to anyone to post anything on Barb's blog...but it's all a moot point now.

24 Thoughts:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

you know man. I used to be a regular reader of cyberpols daily. I am looking at her blog and the number of comments you guys make and don't blame her for what she says.

this post shows you to be an angry and small kinda guy. I for one will not be reading cyberpols anymore.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 1:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Oh, well; sorry to hear it.

Too bad I don't know who you are, even in "nickname" terms, but even if one grants that I was totally wrong on Barb's blog (for argument's sake), I still don't see how that obviates all the other supposedly good stuff you've read for the x amount of time you've been reading cyberpols.

But to each his/her own! Be well.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:03:00 PM  
Blogger pawlr said...

Funny that people are complaining about the number of comments made - its not like there's some maximum comment threshhold that Blogger allows, and I actually like it when we get a lot of comments! More the merrier.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I know, I agree. If anyone out there in blogland would like to help create a 60-comment string -- please do! All political philosophies welcome. And I do mean, all.

Banning some comments from one's site, which is one's prerogative of course, doesn't ban those ideas from the world. LOL

Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Also, I looked this commenter up in SiteMeter: this anonymous hasn't been coming here every day. (I'm virtually certain I have the right person because the time lines up and the entry page was through the permalink for this post/string.)

No matter, but it does suggest that this person is putting up a "negative advertisement" on our blog, rather than taking advantage of "free space" to say whatever he or she liked about ANYTHING, and at whatever length.

Fine. It stays, forever (please, fellow admins, don't delete!). It, plus the above, speaks for itself, and I'll let whomever reads this decide for him- or herself what he or she thinks about this whole tempest in a teapot.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

It is, come to think of it, possible that anonymous changed his or her domain name at some point. So, I can't be sure.

Just full disclosure here...

Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:25:00 PM  
Blogger pawlr said...

Yeah I agree - nothing should ever be deleted - and if we substantially update a post, we should indicate that its been updated.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

True. The only time I don't is if I change a spelling error or something equally formalist and not particularly worth drawing attention to, in the sense you mention.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:31:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hey, all:

I've now been officially kicked off Women on the Verge..., but I specifically want to keep this post open and active -- especially now.

However, I think it makes sense to take Barb's blog off our blogroll. I'll do so; if anyone objects, lemme know. You can always access it via this post.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 2:58:00 PM  
Blogger Kyahgirl said...

I'm sorry to see it come to this. I read Women on the Verge.. now and then and have always appreciated the variety of opinions that are expressed there. I don't always comment since I'm not passionately interested in American Politics and all things related to Judaism. However, it tickles my brain to read about it. Including your comments doug.

Maybe you and B and several others have gotten too close to the discourse and are more concerned with swaying the others towards your views than openly sharing views.

I abhor censorship, but I guess I have to respect the right of a person to have their blog remain their private space to some extent. Maybe that's a stupid thing to say. If you want have a private space you wouldn't do it on the Internet right?

*sigh* this is discouraging.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 5:14:00 PM  
Blogger pawlr said...

L/K - thanks for coming over to talk it out. I agree that every blog has a sort of unspoken "tone" that we probably disrupted. So Barbara had the right to try and maintain that tone of supportiveness, if that's what she wanted to do.

What gets frustrating for me was the double standard she applies to comments. Clearly abusive comments from people who she sees as requiring more sensitivity are tolerated, while the really slightly borderline comments from myself were called hateful, disrespectful, etc. What's totally wierd is that she banned Doug and not me, when Doug had never said anything personal to anyone on those threads, whereas I did get personal once or twice.

I/P is not a subject that anyone is going to be easily swayed on. But I know that I wouldn't be blogging at all if I didn't think I couldn't have an impact on others' opinions, to some extent. I know that I've learned a lot from people doing it; I hope people get something out of what I post as well.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 5:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hi, l/k!

You might be right about what you say in your second paragraph -- I'd like to think that I wanted to hear other views (beyond, "all Palestinians hate Jews" and such) on what to do in I/P (or whatever).

I respect Barb's right to kick me out. It's fine -- no worries, and it's her prerogative. However, I do agree that if you have open comments on your blog, well, it seems at least to me that you should allow open comments.

But Israel is a flashpoint for many American Jews -- believe me; I grew up with American Jews. There's far, far more diversity of opinion among American Jews on Israel than you'll find represented on Barb's blog, though, and I agree -- it's a big, big world of which I/P is only one piece.

Don't be too discouraged! Keep blogging at Barb's site, and feel free to blog here, too!

I have no idea what your politics are, but I can guarantee you that you won't be censored here. You might be debated with, but, I mean, ain't that the point? :)

I mean, if I had a white supremacist or hardcore Stalinist on here, I'd try to engage him/her. Gotta learn why people believe things one finds totally unbelievable, as we all share this little planet.

In fact, we've hooked up with Thornblog (on vacation now) for months to have a right-left discourse. It's worked very well; we've each learned a lot, even if we haven't necessarily changed our minds much. Although on the abortion issue, we did manage to hammer out a solution that didn't please any of us fully, but worked! LOL

Anyway, thanks for the visit! Feel free to educate us about Canadian politics, which I, for one, know so little about! Or on any other issue or topic (not necessarily political) that piques your interest!

If you'd like to join our blog, let me know (you can e-mail me through my profile), and I'll sign you up so you can initiate posts rather than wait for something to comment on. We have a totally open policy here! :)

Thursday, August 18, 2005 5:36:00 PM  
Blogger Kyahgirl said...

Well Doug and Pawlr, thanks for being so welcoming. I like to hear your thoughts on things so will book mark this blog and swing by periodically.
Doug your comment about Canadian politics makes me squirm LOL. I feel guilty that I'm not that knowledgeable. Or rather, I have opinions am not well versed in any it.

I do like your open approach to hearing people out though. Its the only way to make our world more habitable.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 6:12:00 PM  
Blogger BarbaraFromCalifornia said...

Pawlr,

I want to be fair and even handed.
Since you and Doug belong to cyberpols, and are a tag team, I am asking that you not post anymore on my blog either.

I do not want to just single Doug out. Thank you.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 6:49:00 PM  
Blogger pawlr said...

Barbara - I will abide.

But come back and post here anytime you want!

Uh, Barbara? I guess she's gone..

Thursday, August 18, 2005 6:52:00 PM  
Blogger pawlr said...

Wouldn't it have been great if she just said 'Talk to the hand'!

Thursday, August 18, 2005 6:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I agree, Paul, Barb is welcome to post here anytime.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 7:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Isn't it interesting how Barbara's ever-shifting reasons for us not to be able to say something that she just can't compute mirrors the very complaints she's had about BushCo's ever-shifting reasons for going into Iraq?

This isn't meant as a dig; Barb is a nice and smart woman. When any of us hit a blind spot, the special pleading begins. It's simply not possible for her to see beyond her sense of loyalty to her people, as she construes it.

It's a good object lesson for us all, as we're all just as human as Barbara. For myself, I think I will simply look for the pattern in my own thinking, and use that to wend my way into what would otherwise be beyond me, if I see that pattern.

Very psychoanalytic, I know, but the best way to think and think about thinking I've yet encountered in my almost 36 years -- again, maximizing rationality! :)

Finally, it's almost endearing to see how Barb had to cover her kicking us off, which no doubt at some level bothers her, with announcements of "fairness"...it's the other side of her kindness: she can't just say, look, pal, get out. She must justify it, ethically, even though (especially?) because it breaks her own ethical standards, as you pointed out, Paul.

I didn't break the rules she laid out for discourse. That other person ("bleemy's blemishes") totally did ("Barbara, do not listen to this moronic excuse for a human."), but Barbara ignored that -- really because she wanted me gone and couldn't just come out and say it. So, when I pointed that low-level hypocrisy out, she must have known I was right, so she kicked me off the island.

Then, to get rid of you, Paul, and your obviously correct statements, she had to invent yet another "reason" -- that we were using her blog to advertise our own.

Remove the source of guilt; we all do it.

Interestingly, and more generally, I wonder, to follow up on the similarity between this style of thinking and, apparently, BushCo's, what can we learn by extension about BushCo's constant shifting on the reasons we went into Iraq. Is it possible that they're simply doing something similar to Barbara, and not just being totally Machiavellian? I doubt it, but it's worth considering.

Anyway, that's over! :) LOL. I think it's possible she may come back over here and post, and we'll "keep the light on" for her.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:01:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

l/k: No worries on lack of knowledge about Canadian politics!

The blog is about, well, basically whatever those on the blog want it to be about.

Whatever you like to talk about, please do so, and if you want to join up, lemme know.

Ciao, Dug

Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Final thought: it's interesting that Barb, who wrote two posts "confessing" to be "an attention whore" -- her words, not mine! -- ends up by calling us attention seekers.

As Pope said, "All appears yellow to the jaundiced eye."

And again, not a dig; we all have the capacity to do this. It's worth seeing how someone in this kind of position acts and thinks, because, sooner or later, we all will be in that kind of position, and I, for one, would like to minimize the possibility that I'll act as Barb has.

Of course, in the large (and even the small) scheme of things, a tizzy over two blogs with a total of no more than 100 readers, I'm sure, is of little consequence! LOL

'Night, all!

Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:10:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Oh, and Paul, I'm kicking you off cyberpols for posting twice on this string. :) LOL

Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:11:00 PM  
Blogger Mike said...

I actually tried to have an intillegent and reasonable conversation with her some time ago but in typical liberal fashion it's all about feelings and not facts so I was quickly blown off. Go figure.

Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hey, Malcom!

I agree that emotionality kind of overcomes argument there, but I gotta "warn" ya; we're pretty "liberal" (or whatever here at cyberpols.

However, please don't let that fact keep you from posting! We like to get all types of opinions -- and you won't get emotionalism here in response.

Seriously, thanks for posting, and please do come back and lay your non-liberal (conservative?) thoughts on us! We LOVE having "the other side" (and all the other other sides, too) here -- we even had a joint posting thing going with Thornblog -- and they are most definitely Christian conservative. It was and still is great!

Would love to hear what you have to say on what we have to say! What's the point of blogging to one's own? LOL!

Later, Dug

Thursday, August 18, 2005 10:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hey, Malcom: I checked out your blog -- DUDE! That's some story. (I read pretty fast!)

You sound like you're trying to do the best for yourself and I like how you're walking your talk and taking responsibility.

I hope those 29 months go quickly, and I, for one (call me a crazy liberal) think that it might have been better for you not to be punished again but rather helped psychiatrically (which seems to be happening already, judging from your blog).

So, I guess you've got three weeks to covert all us liberals here...unless you get internet access in prison!

(Does that happen? If so, I think it'd be very interesting to hear about prison from someone on the inside...somehow I doubt that privilege is allowed, but I know zilch about it.)

Be well

Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:07:00 PM  

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